Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:15:44 -0000
From: "Ivan Mansley" <ivanman dsl.pipex.com>
"I sit in of the dives
On Fifty-second Street
Uncertain and afraid
As the clever hopes expire
Of a low dishonest decade:
Waves of anger and fear
Circulate over the bright
And darkened lands of the earth,
Obsessing our private lives;
The unmentionable odour of death
Offends the September night." [ September 1, 1939:W.H.Auden]
HEIMAT Part 5: AUF UND DAVON UND ZURUCK [Up and Away and Back]
I found the beginning of this episode rather slow and perhaps a little repetitive, especially the long scene in the cinema, where Reitz seemed to be paying some sort of homage to a film with the same name [Heimat starring Zarah Leander]. We had a very similar scene at the beginning of Part 4 with the camera showing some of the film but concentrating on familiar faces in the audience. I wondered why Reitz dwelled on the film so long and I kept trying to find parallels/significances between the Heimat in the cinema and Reitz's film. A little girl asks an old man: "Do you still know me?" on the screen. Is this a forerunner of the question Paul Simon later puts to his family? Anton and Ernst do not know their father. The film seems to contain the idea of return which is to be important to us later in this episode. I noticed in the film some characters take apples from a shelf, Martina and her new boy-friend are eating apples whilst watching the film, and later when Robert goes to his cellar to get more wine he eats an apple from a store of apples on a shelf. What this signifies I have no idea!
What I did find interesting was a continuing thread related to sight and watching. Lucie crashes her car and kills her parents because she is driving inattentively, not watching! As the funeral procession passes through the village, looking on and commentating like a Greek chorus from classical tragedy are the inn-keeper and now grown-up Hans, the boy with one eye [his other having been put out by a fork]. Lucie has been injured in one eye, we learn, and her dead parents will never see Schabbach, says Hans. Then we move to the cinema, where the audience are watching images. When the postman arrives in the village with Paul's letter Glassisch is fixing broken windows/ glazing... seeing thro'. fanciful? Ernst observes his mother in the arms of Uncle Otto from the half-opened door and is very watchful of his movements, isn't he? Oh, I almost forgot, Mathias'eyesight has gone and he cannot read his son's letter.
The centre of this episode is, of course, the love affair between Otto and Maria and the awful shadow cast over it by the impending return of Paul Simon. The arrival of his letter is wonderfully done as we see the postbag at the station, the postman on his bicycle [notice the switch into colour revealing the bright red forks], the music hammering away in the background [dung,dung,dung] indicating something portentous/important. It is quite clear to me that Reitz is directing our sympathies away from Paul and his expressed intention to return. There is not one word of apology or explanation in his letter to his wife and children for his actions in deserting them. The tone is totally egotistical. "I am worried about Anton and Ernst"..I,I,I. He seems to have no conception that their lives can have developed and gone off in different directions without him.
The episode now develops strength, intensity and raw emotion. Marita Breuer acts the role of the anguished Maria quite beautifully. Her intensity with her tear-filled tragic eyes almost frightens us. "That man, that stranger.And that corpse writes a letter after 12 years. He's dead for me".
In a later scene, in the hotel bedroom, Maria expresses her sense of betrayal and anguish. A great welcome is planned for Paul but as she cries: "And the whole time nobody's asked me.. how I feel about it, what I think about it." Otto's anguish is well done also. This normally self-restrained man is in torment: "Do you still need me, Maria?" and shakes her in fury for an answer. Their tragedy is at the hands of a selfish man. Later on the telephone from the ship he sounds cold and domineering. Maria becomes consumed by guilt like one of Thomas Hardy's tragic heroines. Anton, who has grown into a sensible young man, remarks: "I don't know my father at all."
I thought a little about the relevance of the title. The only character to whom it literally applies is Ernst. Wilfried enrols him in the Hitler Youth Air Corps and in a short, self-contained sequence, we see him soar into the air in a glider and return to earth. Up and Away and Back in fact. Paul Simon has upped and left and gone away to America and now tries to come back. Any other possibilities? Earlier, of course, he had enlisted, fought on the W.Front and walked back home.
On the political level Reitz clearly depicts the folly of basing a whole political programme on notions of racial purity. The search at the local library for proof of Paul Simon's Aryan roots and the fear that there may be Jewish blood in the family becomes almost comic as Wilfried and Eduard squabble about who is the most German. Otto has been dismissed from his job as engineer on the highway because his mother was Jewish. I thought the declaration of war at the end of the episode was very well-handled. It was done with great economy and showed many differing emotions ranging from pride to bewilderment with the church bells adding their note of doom and melancholy. I noted too how the camera suddenly pulled back and showed us the whole of the Hunsruck region. Was it Hitler's actual voice that was used in the broadcast? It sounded like it. Another very memorable image for me where the camera suddenly pulls back was the scene where Anton goes to get Ernst who has run off and they fight, two lonely troubled boys, and as the camera pans back the figures diminish and we see the landscape of river and frozen fields and banks. "I don't want to see him, neither does mother." And
Reitz makes us feel the same.
I shall end with a couple of small questions. Had we seen Herr Pollack before? Why was Martina intent on capturing him in marriage? Perhaps because he did not know her past. We see her calculating the possibilities, yes.watching him!! He does not seem much of a catch. Interestingly no one uses his first name, not even Martina after the shotgun engagement. Why was Herr Pollack so moved by Heimat 1938 with tears streaming down his face? Perhaps because he was in exile from his Heimat, Sudetenland.
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:30:00 +0100
From: Lars Stjernestam <lars stjernestam.com>
A couple of words about Zarah Leander
Well, this subject is perhaps not really that much connected to Edgar Reitz films, but he choose to name his film to the same name as one of Zarah Leanders films, and also to include a few seconds of Zarah Leander in his own film, so I would not say it is unimportant. Also, as a Swede, as one of the few (if not the only) reference to Sweden in Heimat.
Extract from the Swedish National Encyclopaedia:
Zarah Leander, singer and actor 1907-1981. Started working together with the two leading names in show business, Ernst Rolf and Karl Gerhard, in the late 20'ies and
early 30'ies in Stockholm, mostly doing operettas and records. She moved to Germany 1936. In Berlin she become one of the greatest stars in film, in for example:
Zu Neuen Ufren 37
La Habanera 37
Es War Eine Rauchende Ballnacht 39
Die Grosse Liebe 42
Leander then moved back to Sweden 1943. Due to her nazi connection she did not perform in Sweden until 1949. In the 50'ies and 60'ies she had a career in film and records in both Sweden and West Germany. So far the Encyclopaedia.
Zarah sat at the same table as Adolf when there was party in the film studio. She also was given the opportunity to become a German citizen by Joseph Goebbels, but she turned that down.
Zarah originally came from the town Karlstad in Sweden. As late as mid december 2003, 22 years after her death, a statue of Zarah was finally erected in the grand theatre hall in Karlstad, where she had her debut 1927 and held her farewell concert 1974. My personal memories (I'm born 1957) of her is seeing her on TV in the 60'ies as "that strange women with a man's voice". My father always turned off the TV with the words "that nazi w...e". Zarah is still a very controversial person in Sweden.
Best Heimat Regards
Lars Stjernestam, Sweden--
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:05:26 +0100
From: Th.Hoenemann t-online.de
Dear Reinder, Ivan and other friends of Heimat,
Ivan, thank you very much for your great introduction again. You always discover and express a lot of things I just dealt with unconsciously, so you help me (and surely others, too) to think more systematic, maybe even in scientific categories about Reitz's work.
Today I just want to follow one of your thoughts, namely the deeper meaning of the episodes title, because in this case I disagree with you.
In my opinion the title "up and away - and back" is focusing the development of Maria's life. Her love to Otto seems to bring her back to youth, seems to open her new ways in life. For the first time ever Maria thinks about having fun in her life (watching a car race, visiting the cinema, go dancing etc.) - and about travelling: in part 4 she says when greeting Otto in the morning with a sound of longing: "Yes, a nice day, a day one should be able to travel." (in original: "Ach ja, da müsst mer mal so richtig schön verreise könne."). This is a real new thought for Maria who never had left Schabbach before - and will not until the end of her life. Even Katharina recognizes Maria's change of mind: In part 4 she says "Mathias, we have to care more for Maria's children. The girl needs more time for herself. Life was so hard for her all those years.". So Maria is one step before changing her whole life, she is going to get up and away.
Paul's letter brings her BACK on the base of reality and destroys all her dreams and aims, all her longing and hopes to have a new life with Otto.
Did you recognise that Reitz is quoting the scene the letter arrives from the scene Paul is getting back from war (the first scene of the whole film)? The way through the village, Glasisch repairing the Tanzsaals window, th fiery iron (colour!) - and the music: Paul's theme! I like this sequence very much because of Riezt facility to express with pictures and music the destinating meaning for Maria and for the whole movie.
What do you think?
Best regards to you all,
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:07:42 -0600
From: "Susan Biedron" <susan jsbiedron.com>
Here are some of my thoughts on Part 5:
In the opening scene Glassisch, one-eyed Hans and others are discussing the roads. Glassisch, always very perceptive, comments that the new roads do not connect the towns - they connect bunkers. Then we see Lucie driving her parents in the car, there is an accident and Lucie's parents are killed. Perhaps this is too dramatic but I interpret this to illustrate that Germany's new roads are actually roads to death and destruction. Innocent people (Lucie's parents) go along for the ride and are killed. Lucie, who takes advantage of the new order for her advancement, is disfigured for life. She is driving the car, but is not completely attentive to what she is doing.
Ivan's comments on eyes are interesting - I did not notice this before. Germans turning a blind eye to what is happening in the country?? This is just a wild guess.
I feel so sorry for Maria. Paul is indeed a selfish man who ruins her life. He starts out in Part 1 to be likeable, but that is the last time he ever gets my sympathy. After that I do not like him at all. In Germany of the time, if a husband was missing for a number of years, could he officially be declared dead? I also wonder even if Maria had obtained a divorce, given the times, would she have been allowed to marry Otto because of his Jewish mother? Is anyone knowledgeable about this?
> Had we seen Herr Pollack before? Why was Martina intent on capturing him in
> marriage? Perhaps because he did not know her past. We see her calculating the
> possibilities, yes.watching him!! He does not seem much of a catch.
On the contrary - Herr Pollack is a respectable person. I think Martina has seen that Lucie had done very well for herself by becoming respectable. Martina is looking for a secure place in society. She sees that Pauline's husband is prosperous. Herr Pollack works for him, so he may become prosperous also. I think she just wants to fit in with the other couples.
The apples: I have no idea about what the apples mean, but I found it very interesting how the apples were stored in the cellar - in single layers, spaced well apart. It does make sense, but I had never seen apples stored that way.
The other thing I must comment on is Pauline's 2 children left alone when their parents were at the movie. This was a common practice in the past. Parents went out when their children were asleep. I can remember being home sick as a small child - 5 or 6 - and my mother went to the store. Today a parent would be put in jail for doing that.
> This is a real new thought for Maria who never had left Schabbach before - and will
> not until the end of her life.
This thought has been mentioned several times that Maria never leaves the village. She does leave at least 2 times that we see - 1, when she goes to Trier to meet Otto, 2, when she goes to meet Paul's ship.
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:25:38 -0000
From: "Ivan Mansley" <ivanman dsl.pipex.com>
"Today I just want to follow one of your thoughts, namely the deeper meaning of the episodes title, because in this case I disagree with you. In my opinion the title "up and away - and back" is focusing the development of Maria's life."
I don't think there is any disagreement, Thomas. I felt that the only character to whom it applied literally was Ernst and then thought about its relevance to Paul. I then asked for suggestions. You have given me one and I agree with you. Maria struggles to find a new life and is "up and away" but her duty to the father of her children, to her marriage vows, to the climate of the times, force her "back". I had not made the link with the title. I wrote also: "Maria becomes consumed by guilt like one of Thomas Hardy's tragic heroines. "She is like Tess in "Tess of the D'Urbervilles", the tragic late 19th century novel by Thomas Hardy. Convention and orthodox morality force her back to her original husband. Tess ends by killing her worthless husband and is hung from the gallows. The novelist comments: "The President of the Immortals had finished his sport with Tess". Maria is not Tess but there is much tragedy in her life as well.
Thomas also wrote: "Did you recognise that Reitz is quoting the scene the letter arrives from the scene Paul is getting back from war (the first scene of the whole film)? The way through the village, Glasisch repairing the Tanzsaals window, the fiery iron (colour!) - and the music: Paul's theme! I like this sequence very much because of Reitz facility to express with pictures and music the destinating meaning for Maria and for the whole
I must admit that I had not recognized this. You are so right. What a clever man this Edgar Reitz is!! The "quotation" is so skilful and subtle but when you compare the two moments the parallels are indisputable. I noticed in Paul's return the lady is cleaning the windows and Glassisch is annoying her but with the arrival of the letter Glassisch is putting in new glass. A reformed character!!
In her post Susan wrote about my comment on Herr Pollack as "not much of a catch": "On the contrary - Herr Pollack is a respectable person. I think Martina has seen that Lucie had done very well for herself by becoming respectable. Martina is looking for a secure place in society. She sees that Pauline's husband is prosperous. Herr Pollack works for him, so he may become prosperous also. I think she just wants to fit in with the other couples."
I thoroughly agree that Herr Pollack is a respectable person and is appealing to Martina in that respect with her dubious past. That is what I was implying by my remark: "Why was Martina intent on capturing him in marriage? Perhaps because he did not know her past". She is not certain though, is she? You can see her calculating the odds. Is he worth it? I agree with everything else you say here about Martina's motives, Susan. When I said: "He does not seem much of a catch. Interestingly no one uses his first name, not even Martina after the shotgun engagement" I meant that he appears lacking in character and in the kind of good looks Martina might have found attractive. For instance, after the announcement of the spurious engagement, all he can say is: "Well,I'm not so sure." Rather feeble, don't you think? In the good looks department he is certainly no Cary Grant or even Brad Pitt! [Got to show myself up to date!]. Martina is, perhaps, sacrificing a great deal, by her standards.
Susan also wrote: "Then we see Lucie driving her parents in the car, there is an accident and Lucie's parents are killed. Perhaps this is too dramatic but I interpret this to illustrate that Germany's new roads are actually roads to death and destruction. Innocent people (Lucie's parents) go along for the ride and are killed. Lucie, who takes advantage of the new order for her advancement, is disfigured for life." I hope this does not sound patronising but I found this very perceptive and illuminating. For instance, I have always had it drummed into me that Hitler had the autobahn built not to improve the lot of German motorists but in order to more successfully mobilize troops and transport supplies and munitions to the front. Certainly "roads to death and destruction." Mind you, here in the bumbling, inefficient UK we didn't manage to open a single motorway until November 1959!! What a contrast! Susan also commented how perceptive Glassisch is. It seems to me that Reitz uses him as a kind of "mouthpiece" to voice his own more modern thoughts, as Glassisch is not so much a direct participant in, but more a commentator on, the action.
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:37:08 +0100
From: "Maarten Landzaat" <gijs xs4all.nl>
I watched part 5 just after Christmas, because it was originally scheduled on Dec 26. I apparently didn't save the new schedule. I watched the episode this evening again. After the first viewing I saw "things" regarding the title, and the strange apple scenes. After the second viewing, I saw some more title-related scenes, and a man/woman-thing (maybe). Elaborating on the "things":
After my first viewing, I felt (and still feel) I see the title everywhere! I looked up "auf und davon" in my dictionary since I had the feeling it was an expression. It tranlates into Dutch as "ervandoor", which is similar to "gone", or "off" (in the "gone"-meaning). So we have "gone and back". To and fro. The interesting thing is that EVERY occasion of "back", everything goes terribly wrong.
1 In the most abstract meaning, I think the title refers to the war, which is an important subject of this episode. The "auf und davon" refers to the start of the war, enthusiastically
welcomed by Hitler, and many men. The "Zurueck" is not filmed in this episode, but we all know that the Germans come back after the war, and all is not good.
2 Lucie goes auf un davon zu Berlin (?) and returns back and a terrible accident happens. The new generation kills the older generation?
3 Paul left and comes back. It goes wrong on two levels: 1 he's not allowed to enter the country. 2 He wrecks Maria's life.
4 Maria left the village to pick up Paul, but does not succeed in bringing Paul back (at least not as planned).
5 Otto leaves Maria's house, and promptly looses his job. He cannot return to Maria because Paul is coming and Maria has all her thoughts with Paul.
6 When Pauline and Robert left for the cinema, but when coming back the kids were awake and doing some mild mischief.
7 Robert takes the car (and maybe himself?) away. We do not expect the car back anytime soon.
8 Ernstchen flying. I didn't get this one first (I watched it before Ivan's introduction), but Ivan made me see it. This is the most litteral explanation of the title, and oddly, about the only one that ends well.
9 Now I'm probably exaggerating, but I felt the title also refers to the trembling of the earth just before the war, to the trembling of Maria (in bed with Otto), and of the flags during Hitler's speech.
Like Ivan, I noticed the three apple-scenes, and like Ivan I have no idea of the significance.
My girlfriend immediately said that the apples were there to dry. I will ask her again why she thought that.
I noticed that when we were shown all the children from the army unit during the speech, all the boys were looking quite tough, but the last two were girls, and they were breathing heavily, much more excited. This also seems to be the case in the village, where the women are more open about their dismay and worries about the war than the men.
>What I did find interesting was a continuing thread related to sight and watching.
The list you provide is very impressive. I didn't pick up on it, unfortunately I forgot to pay attention to it in my second viewing. It must signify something. Maybe the question is "who sees (or wants to see) that a terrible tragedy is coming"? Some (like Maria) have their thoughts somewhere else. Just guessing here...
> Did you recognise that Reitz is quoting the scene the letter arrives from
> the scene Paul is getting back from war (the first scene of the whole film)?
No, I didn't, but it makes perfect sense! I will look up this scene in part 1 again.
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 23:32:50 -0000
From: "Ivan Mansley" <ivanman dsl.pipex.com>
Because of the difficulties with the server I did not see Maarten's post before commenting on Thomas' and Susan's points and I do not think he had seen my contribution before his posting!
I have read with care Maarten's definition of the title and found it interesting that "Auf und Davon" has the force of a proverbial/colloquial expression. I did have a little difficulty with some of the "things" in your list, Maarten, where you might be stretching matters a little far. For instance, you wrote: "1 In the most abstract meaning, I think the title refers to the war, which is an important subject of this episode. The "auf und davon" refers to the start of the war, enthusiastically welcomed by Hitler, and many men. The "Zurueck" is not filmed in this episode, but we all know that the Germans come back after the war, and all is not good."
However, we do not see the return of soldiers in this episode and the film's focus is on the declaration of war rather than any "up and away". I like your points 2, 3, 4 & 5. For point 6 we did not see Pauline and Robert leave for the cinema, did we? So there is some stretching there. My biggest difficulty was with your Point 9, Maarten. You wrote: "9 Now I'm probably exaggerating, but I felt the title also refers to the trembling of the earth just before the war, to the trembling of Maria (in bed with Otto), and of the flags during Hitler's speech."
I'm afraid I cannot see this as related to the title. Please explain more fully.
Returning to the apples! I am sure Robert stored them in the cellar so they would not spoil. He takes one and munches it reflectively while staring at his wine. Does he have some forebodings about the future? When I was watching the scene in the cinema and Martina hands Herr Pollack an apple from which he bites I started reflecting on the story of Adam and Eve in the Bible and the eating of the apple from the tree of knowledge and the coming of sin but I had to reject this as merely fanciful and probably would not
As regards the air cadets lined up for the declaration of war I made a note "callow youth" and saw the scene as a comment on old men sacrificing youth in war. I did notice that in Schabbach, exactly at the time of the declaration of war, a baby is born, given the name of Sieghild. Reitz seems to be saying life goes on come what may.
Maarten wrote at the end of his post after some kind words: "Maybe the question is "who sees (or wants to see) that a terrible tragedy is coming"? Some (like Maria) have their thoughts somewhere else. Just guessing here..." I am also just guessing. Maybe Reitz, through this thread, is indicating the necessity of all of us to see clearly our own situations and what our leaders are doing. Lucie kills her parents thro' not being attentive, the older generation's sight is fading [Mathias cannot read his son's letter] but Hans and Glasisch are watchful. Was Wiegand or was he blinded by nationalism. Were the people of the thirties sleep-walking their way towards doom? We are in agreement here, Maarten.
Was it Hitler's actual voice in the declaration of war or an actor's? I could not see from the sub-titles.
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:52:05 +0100
From: "Theresia en Martijn" <theresia_martijn onetelnet.nl>
> Was it Hitler's actual voice in the declaration of war or an actor's?
> I could not see from the sub-titles.
> Ivan Mansley
As far as I know (and I think I've seen this speech in documentaries) this is Hitler's own voice and real speech. Why should they make a new tape with someone else's voice? It's much cheaper and easier to use the real one and for a film like Heimat I'm sure it's not difficult to get permission to use it.
I'm sorry I didn't give any reaction on part 4 and 5 so far. I was in the middle of moving house and had no time. I hope you'll allow me to write some things about both episodes soon.
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 21:52:19 +0100
From: "Maarten Landzaat" <gijs xs4all.nl>
> Because of the difficulties with the server I did not see Maarten's post
> before commenting on Thomas' and Susan's points and I do not think he had
> seen my contribution before his posting!
> My biggest difficulty was with your Point 9, Maarten. You wrote:" 9 Now I'm
> probably exaggerating, but I felt the title also refers to the trembling of the earth
> just before the war, to the trembling of Maria (in bed with Otto), and of the flags
> during Hitler's speech." I'm afraid I cannot see this as related to the title. Please
> explain more fully.
Maybe it's because I'm Dutch: one of the possible translations of the title would be "Heen en weer", which is a word-by-word translation (auf&davon=heen, zurueck=weer). But in Dutch it mainly denotes a _repetitive_ to and fro movement, like a ferry, like trembling, like waving etc. Maybe the German natives can tell us if the original title also has this meaning in German?
> ... I started reflecting on the story of Adam and Eve in the Bible and the eating
> of the apple from the tree of knowledge and the coming of sin but I had to reject
> this as merely fanciful and probably would not fit.
I'm not too biblical but didn't the apple eating in paradise signify the start of all evil? If so, that would sort of fit.
> Was it Hitler's actual voice in the declaration of war or an actor's? I could not see
> from the sub-titles.
It definitely sounded original to me.
From: Susan Biedron <susan jsbiedron.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 9:54 AM
Regarding Herr Pollack:
someone asked if we had seen this character before:
Is he in the crowd that helps when Martina's car gets stuck? I did think it was strange that she addresses him as "Herr Pollack" after they became "engaged." Does his not having a first name show that he is not important as a person, but only as a concept of respectability for Martina?
Maartin and Ivan's comment on the apples:
> "I'm not too biblical but didn't the apple eating in paradise signify
> the start of all evil? If so, that would sort of fit."
> I started reflecting on the story of Adam and Eve in the
> Bible and the eating of the apple from the tree of knowledge
> and the coming of sin but I had to reject this as merely fanciful and
> probably would not fit.
This crossed my mind also, and then I immediately dismissed this as being too obvious -- but perhaps you both are right. Robert goes downstairs to get a bottle of wine. His well stocked cellar is a sign of his prosperity - everything has gone exceptionally well for Robert and Pauline in the past few years. He looks over his wine bottles - the camera makes a point of this, then he selects a simple apple. He takes a bite like Eve. At the end of this episode, Robert goes away. But - and this is where I may be making too much of this - Robert is not an evil character - he is only a good man who has been successful.
Wiegand and Eduard's search in the archives:
I found this scene very amusing. Wiegand is going on and on about his name being pure German. Then Eduard says it sounds French - Wiegand does not like that comment!
Does anyone have comments on the misunderstanding of the telegram? Is it Lucie who misinterprets the message incorrectly or was the error in the telegram?
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:38:44 -0000
From: "Ivan Mansley" <ivanman dsl.pipex.com>
I think we had a more lively discussion this time. We had 7 contributors with 11 posts relevant to Part 5. We discussed amongst many other things the relevance of the title, the characters of Maria, Paul, and the role of Glasisch, children left alone [Did you see in the papers the story about two English parents who left their baby in a car whilst they took their small child to the toilet in a New York shopping mall and were arrested when they returned to the car 10 minutes later?], apples, the theme of "seeing", use of film "quotations" and Hitler's voice in declaration of war. Please contribute on Parts 4 and 5, Theresia, whenever you have time, tho' don't leave it too long or we might be immersed in another topic.